Bandit project trike

[jim99]

Hi Joel,

Great looking build. Just one little thing, it seems you are no longer building a reverse trike. Some states look at three wheeled vehicles as motorcycle and the DMV regs are a lot simpler for motorcycles than four wheeled autos. Be certain that your state will register your vehicle.

In WI if it not a replica of a vehicle older than 20 years, then it is looked on as new (2012) construction. Which requires one to follow hundreds of pages of regs. Including providing emissions and crash data.

Be prepared if you plan to register, know your state vehicle regs.

All that B.S. aside, you have a very "cool" build.

Jim

[joeld0803]

I started out in mind with being a reverse trike. but with the wide frame I decided to go with the 2 wheels in the back as close together as possible so it would have the look so to speak of a trike but I honestly haven't checked into the kit car regulations and I need to look into it. I didn't want to fork out the money it would have took to buy a wide swing arm although I am certain I could make my own but the cost of a sigle wide tire for that swing arm would be costly and unless I could figure out how they are building single sided swing arms and hubs I was limited.

I would rather build everything possible myself for it to cut down and cost than to have to buy all the custom stuff for it.

One way I guess I could loojk at this is that if I run into any trouble licensing it then a sigle rear tire is still doable since I am going with a swing arm concept in the rear anyway. I would just have to build a swingarm to fit in the mounting brackets I already have and then bite the bullet and buy a wide tire to fit it.

I appreciate the comments and the advise. I am new at this stuff and have never done anything like this so I have been learning as I go. I don't have access to custom machining equipment and machinist charge quite a bit of money for building stuff.

It really makes me a little jealous and envious to see how much equipment some people have at their disposal on here and if they need it they just go out and buy it like it was nothing.

We all do the best we can with what we have to work with.

I will check into the laws here a bit to see if what I am doing is going to fly or not and then decide from there.

I plan on using the fuel tank, engine, guages, wiring, lighting as much as possible from the bike although I know they wouldn't classify it as a trike with the 2 rear wheels. I am just not certain on what it would be classified as.

[glassman]

Joel, i love the stance of this thing. It looks MEAN! I cant wait to see it in person. Can you invision the burnout with those big meats on the back. Yes yes, i am a big kid.

[joeld0803]

Yes it does look mean but with the 1200 only having 100HP stock not certain what kind of burnouts to expect. Especially with the 2 wide tires on the back.

I have to admit for a first time build project I am very impressed with the way it looks and is turning out.

Hopefully I will be mounting the engine in it soon.

I still need to do some fab work for the rear shocks and I still need brake lines and clutch line and gas peddle and linkage as well so it will be a while yet before I can ride it.

[joeld0803]

I had t do a correction to the back of the cab for engine room purposes. Took the center beam out and replaced it with a sort of Y beam to allow the engine exhaust to come forward a little further to save some room on the length of the project.

Right now it is coming in at 9' exactlly from where the front and back wheels rest on the ground.







I plan on using the tubing for air rams to force air to the engine compartment to help with cooling the engine.

[captainamerica]

Hey Joel,

So I have been following your build for awhile and I just read through it again one end to the other and I kept looking at your chassis and it seemed off for some reason. I finally figured out why. Is there a plan to triangulate that thing in any way?

From an engineering/safety perspective it looks like its going to fold like a kite if it ever takes a hit or runs over a bump at high speed. If you have the time you should clamp one end of the chassis and set the other end on a point (any sort of angle iron would work), then hang known weights off of a bar that is a known length from the vehicle center line and you can measure the torsional rigidity of the chassis. Higher is of course better and safer, but as always weight and money are the compromise. I think it would just give you an idea of how strong your build is, especially if your worried about your welds.

Second, I noticed was the upper a-arms have that (what appears to be) 4" piece of straight tube at the end of them. beware, this will undoubtedly break at some important moment.

Finally, I couldn't tell for sure from the pictures but do you have a collapsing steering column? Getting speared in a front end collision is no fun.

Sorry if I am coming across as downer telling you you're all wrong, I don't mean to be, I just want people to be safe. You have gotten further then I have in a shorter time, and I commend you for that, I just worry about your chassis design. Best of luck to you.

Andrew

[joeld0803]

It will be more or less diamond shaped and have yet to finish off the back end engine compartment area.

The center backbone tubing is 6"x3" and 3/16 thick so I seriously don't think it will fold up in half. I did put quite a few side runners in place as well for the sides to connect the back better to the front and be able to maintain a roadster appeal.

I can say I have been standing in the middle of it and bouncing in it quite agressively to see if there is any give and the only giving is the front springs.

I still plan on welding in some gusets from the tip of the a arms to the center tube for more support of the a arms. as well. I am just kinda jumping around at the moment trying to get the chassis design and structure complete and I am still making changes as I go.

I appreciate all the input though. keep helping me out as I have never done this before.

[joeld0803]

Ok so I made a little more progress today working on it as far as the engine compartment area and strengthening the back end.

I also finally recieved my correct thread wheel hub for the axle (they sent me 2 different thread pitch hubs so now I can finish putting it together proper and they also sent me the upgraded brake caliper that they had to order for it to complete my order.

Rear dual shocks are on the way too and I can't wait to get the rear suspension all connected so it will be sitting on its own without blocks supporting the back end. I am going to have to hoist the back up in the air just so I can get to the bottom side of the frame to complete the welding that needs to be done underneath. Sooner or later I will be grinding and cleaning up all my welds and goping over any areas that need attention as well as possibly skeletonizing more areas to lighten it up as much as possible.

I wish I knew what it weighed currently but I am almost scared to find out.

Here are the recents...........





Still not done with the back end but it's a good start and tomorrow I'll be doing some more. It's looking like right now I will have room for the 2 bandit tanks I have to give me about 11 gallons of fuel carrying capacity and they will be mounted over the engine angling in on the back side of them to match the lines of the body.

The 2 shocks will mout up to the cross brace and the tanks will be bolted down on the top side of them at the rear but I will need to find a way to fabricate a front tank support. The engine shoukld cradle right down in the middle if I measured correctly...........LOL!

The exhaust I am thinking will turn up from the bottom and I'll go up through the front of the rear swing arm hole where the shock would normally be and curve to the back to go out the middle in the rear with a 1" inlet and dual outlet muffler with stainless angled resonators at the outlet.

[joeld0803]

Actually the muffler won't have a 1" inlet.............that was a typo........I meant a single inlet of probably 2" with a dual outlet. I bought a delta flow series for my GMC and love the way it sounds and I am thinking they probably have something similar in a scaled down version for smaller engines that should fit nicely in between the rear tires and frame section.

[glassman]

Man, i wish i could see inside your head. This thing is cool.

[joeld0803]

So does my Girlfriend.......................LOL!

I will take that as a compliment. It's almost funnie that I started this project 4 months ago with a sketch on paper and a dream.
I worked on a little mock model that I built out of 1/4 x 1/2 wood stock for the center frame and then used coat hangers for the tubing shape of the lower part and a arms but never got much further than that before I decided to just buy the steel and start making it.

I think at the moment I have invested about 5000.00 in it including the bike and all the parts I have bought so far which isn't too bad really considering it's a one off and there certainly won't be anything like it down here in Houston.

I would imagine I will have to get an alarm on it and LOW JACK to protect it and keep it mine.

I am not sure what kind of market value it could bring and not certain I could come to part with it unless I made another one similar to it. I would imagine I would charge enough for it to more than pay for it and to have enough to make another one.

Not sure what I would do different except for make the frame out of something lighter and put more power to it.

Although until I road test it and start enjoying it I won't really know just what I have.

I still feel the 1200 bandit engine should be enough to get it down the road at a decent speed and if it struggles then I'll upgrade the engine with higher compression pistons or oversize, head work, cams, and carb work to get it up to 140hp or so. Already considering upgrading the clutch to kevlar discs and a heavier clutch spring as mentioned on bandit forums due to the weight increase.

I really can't see the 1200 having the power to roast the tires as someone had mentioned earlier but I suppose if I get a larger sprocket to lower the ratio it would be possible. I just don't want to break it too quickly..........LOL! I also really want it to still be somewhat fuel efficient.

Believe it not I have been experimenting with Hydrogen in my GMC but since the GMC is fuel injected and computer controlled it seems to offset the benefit of the alternate fuel. Since this thing is carburated I am considering putting my hydrogen cell on it and experimenting with fuel economy once I am up to highway speeds and my target would be somewhere around 45 mpg. I would imagine I will get somewhere in the low to mid 30's out of the engine now due to the increased weight. The bike generally gets about 39-42 MPG.

[kolibri]

Hello Joel,

just looking, once again, through your building progress.

Good work in such a short time. Would like to have so much time.Hahaha.

I have one question. Did you control your steering geometry.

At this pic it looks like you have the same problem that I had.



Maybe it depends on the pic but it looks like that your right wheel has a bigger angel then the left.

So if this is right you have a bad ackerman load.

The inner wheel discribes a smaller radius then the outer wheel
so it has to have a bigger wheel angel.

It is just what i saw. If I'am wrong no problem. I only hate what happened to me and that I had to change my hole frontsuspension.

I don't want that you have to do the same.

Would like to see pics made from the front, showing full maximum angel of turn and from above to see the steering geometry.

Thank's and greetings from Germany.

Ralf

[Joeld]

If I turn the wheel all the way to one direction the inside wheel is sharper. Everything used in the front end is from a Mustang II except for the a arms. Now you have me wondering and I will recheck it

[joeld0803]

Ok so I went & checked and my Ackerman geometry and it is off. Right now the connection for the steering knuckle on the spindle is in the front and will more than likely need to be reversed to be in the rear to correct the issue. I do however keep getting mixed data regarding Ackerman. Right now the outside wheel turns sharper than the inside which will cause tire scrub in sharp cornering. A little late on the info but better than never and we live and learn from our mistakes. I should be able to correct without a ton of changes I think. Thanks

[joeld0803]

Kolibri,

You are correct and my ackerman isn't even close to being true. The outside wheel in the turn will turn sharper the way that it is now and I need to fix it.

There are 3 problems I am facing and I may be able to fix them all by doing a few things instead of completely starting over.

First thing is the wide track front end. I will need to get my spindles in closer to the frame and in order to do that I plan on bending the upper and lower a arms down and then back out straight. This will do 2 things for me. First it will lower my spindles and raise the front end which something I need to do anyway. It will also shorten the distance of the a arms sticking out from the frame by about 3-4 inches due to the soon to be "S curve" in them.

At the same time that is achieved it will also pull my ackerman in closer to where it needs to be so as it is closer to true.

I can't swap my spindles around due the components and the way they are laid out on the front a arms so this seems to be my only option that would make sense to correct it.
I did read an article that says it is possible to heat up and carefully bend the steering knuckle point on the spindle to achieve proper ackerman and I may have to do that as a last resort.
Right now the center line of my spindle pivot and steering knuckle intersects about the midway point between the rear tires and the axle center.

If I find I still have to bend them I have to move them towards the outside which will put them really close to my rotor but I have about a 1 1/2 inches to play with on that.

I guess I'll cross my fingers and hope for the best.

Thanks for pointing that out.

I asked someone I know that had dealt with front suspension on sprint cars to look at it in the beginning and he said everything looked pretty good but I guess he has gotten rusty in his old age............LOL!

I should have known to spend more time reading up on steering geometry instead of just looking at pictures and gestimating.......LOL!

AGIAN........we live and learn from our mistakes..............

All in all I am still impressed with how far it has come in such a short time without any real experience.

I was planning on shortening the a arms anyway and this may resolve the other issues as well.

If I have to build another template and start over making shorter a arms then so be it. I have the experience at making these and they came out better than I expected..........although too dang long.............

I kinda wanted a decent sized front hood and grill on it which is why I went 3 feet wide on the frame in the beginning and I should have made the a arms shorter but not having all my ordered components and getting in a hurry I overkilled the length.

Not having the tires and wheels and spindles at the time I misjudged the necessary length for the tires to clear the frame in a turn and overshot it by about 8 inches on each side in full turn.

[mtntech]

If it's any consolation, switching spindles won't help. They won't work switched. When I was building karts the rule of thumb for Ackerman was that you should be able to draw a straight line through the steering arm hole and kingpin hole and it should intersect the center of the rear axle. Look at the first pic on the left in the link I'v attached.

www.motor.org.uk/documentlibrary/Sep%2009/TT%20_%20Sept%2009.pdf

[joeld0803]

I read an article regarding the ackerman issue and I now see what is out of sorts.

I responded in the long and lengthy post 2 up as far as what I can try to do to fix it.

I was under the assumption..........that if I was using all Mustang II suspension stuff then I couldn't possibly be that far off and I was unfortunately wrong.

I know I can't swap the spindles around and resolve the issue. It would actually make it worse than what it currently is now because it would push the line further to the outside end of the axle. Keeping the steering knuckle up front is what I am going to have to do. I will either shorten the A arms to bring the line back in to the center where it belongs or I will bend the a arms to shorten the length of them. I still have to reinforce them anyway and I knew I wasn't done with them but now I know for certain that they definitely need to be shorter.

I will also need to lengthen my Push rod to the shock as a result if I bend them but they already need to be longer anyway since they are maxed out on their length adjustment.

I want to get the front end up on it anyway to at least 8-10 inches. Right now it is sitting around 5 1/2 which is too close for comfort. The back is going to ride somewhere near the 8 inch mark anyway with a level rear swing arm.

Again Thanks everyone for the input. I really appreciate it. I want the thing to be right so I will correct it.

[mtntech]

Sounds like you're on the right track. Keep up the good work.

[kolibri]

Hi joeld,

found some links of steering trouble at the net.

Maybe you can use them.

www.circletrack.com/chassistech/ctrp_1001_bump_steer_explained/photo_02.html

www.super7thheaven.co.uk/Glossary

www.circletrack.com/chassistech/ctrp_0809_moment_center_location/index.html

woodwardsteering.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=682&Itemid=586

www.stockcarproducts.com/pstech3.htm

Go on man this is a really impressive projekt.

Ralf from Germany

[joeld0803]

Some of those articles are the ones I read up on to understand what I need to do to remedy the problem.

Thanks for the encouragement.

I will continue until it is running down the street.

I am hoping that is sooner than later and I am really shooting for November time frame.........however it may not be completely ready for street by then. I still have lighting and wiring to do yet as well. I also need to test drive it and see if there are any structural or handling issues I will have to deal with.

Getting it liscenced will be another whole issue I am afraid.

I guess we shall see.

Thanks again for the assist.