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Post by Ned on Mar 18, 2014 23:35:28 GMT -5
Hello Andrew
The steel you are using you state is "1020" which I am told is tool steel, is that correct?
Regards
Ned |
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Post by mtntech on Mar 19, 2014 20:40:46 GMT -5
1020 low carbon steel is just a standard form of metal you can purchase, its similar to 1018 (which is basic steel you get everywhere) but its stronger because of the higher carbon content. What you want is SAE 1020 Drawn over mandrel (DOM) seamless tubing so there is no weld seam to break on you. Its about twice as expensive but about half the cost of 4130. As far as supply goes I don't know, every chassis book I have talks about 1020 and 4130, most of them are dated about 20 years ago though so their may be something newer that replaced it as the standard. I usually just ask for DOM at the metal shop, people working their usually don't know anything about metal other then the list of numbers they have. 10 is the SAE grade and chemical make up, the 20 stands for 2.0% carbon content (1018 is as you would guess 1.8% carbon). Regardless use DOM, it won't split at the seam as it doesn't have one. On a note closer to home I am having fueling issues I think. I finally got the trike out for a quick run around the block today and it worked for about 500 hundred yards and then sputtered to death slowly and died, I waited a few seconds knowing I wasn't out of fuel and tried it, started right up, went for about 200 yards and then did the same thing with the same restart and then I pulled into the garage. This does not bode well and I have no good way to put a fuel pressure sensor in line with the system. Any ideas from the crowd? The current test option I am going to try later is running it while I jack it up and see if I can kill it by starvation in a reasonable amount of time and a reasonable tilt. Both times I was about 50 feet out of a corner when it started to fade. UPDATE: did the tilt test, probably with to much fuel in the tank, no issues presented themselves. DOM does have a seam. You just can't see it . It starts life as an ERW (Electric Resistance Welded) tube. |
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Post by DaveJ98092 on Mar 19, 2014 23:26:52 GMT -5
1020 low carbon steel is just a standard form of metal you can purchase, its similar to 1018 (which is basic steel you get everywhere) but its stronger because of the higher carbon content. What you want is SAE 1020 Drawn over mandrel (DOM) seamless tubing so there is no weld seam to break on you. Its about twice as expensive but about half the cost of 4130. As far as supply goes I don't know, every chassis book I have talks about 1020 and 4130, most of them are dated about 20 years ago though so their may be something newer that replaced it as the standard. I usually just ask for DOM at the metal shop, people working their usually don't know anything about metal other then the list of numbers they have. 10 is the SAE grade and chemical make up, the 20 stands for 2.0% carbon content (1018 is as you would guess 1.8% carbon). Regardless use DOM, it won't split at the seam as it doesn't have one. On a note closer to home I am having fueling issues I think. I finally got the trike out for a quick run around the block today and it worked for about 500 hundred yards and then sputtered to death slowly and died, I waited a few seconds knowing I wasn't out of fuel and tried it, started right up, went for about 200 yards and then did the same thing with the same restart and then I pulled into the garage. This does not bode well and I have no good way to put a fuel pressure sensor in line with the system. Any ideas from the crowd? The current test option I am going to try later is running it while I jack it up and see if I can kill it by starvation in a reasonable amount of time and a reasonable tilt. Both times I was about 50 feet out of a corner when it started to fade. UPDATE: did the tilt test, probably with to much fuel in the tank, no issues presented themselves. DOM does have a seam. You just can't see it. It starts life as an ERW (Electric Resistance Welded) tube. Yeah, DOM is stated out as a flat steel that is rolled and welded, then it is drawn over a roller and mandrel the rolls the seam flat. There are Y-tube vids that show the possess. Welding 4130 takes skill and pre-heating the joints then heat treating after. 1020 mild steel will weld easier and is designed to bend in a crash where as 4130 can crack easier. Most welding wire for mild steel (1020) MIG is ER70S-6 or ER70S-7 (8% carbon). You want lower carbon wire that the base metal. Check this out: www.aws.org/wj/apr03/AWfeature.html |
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Post by DaveJ98092 on Mar 20, 2014 10:39:21 GMT -5
Well, I am a telephone repair tech and my collage days were 20 years ago so I am only going from a few brain cells left alive.
What you have is somewhere between 1010 and 1018 mild steel. These ratings are world standard (ASA 1020) and everywhere in the world you should be able to find any alloy of steel tubing, COST may be the factor. I would like to have a Tensile Strength of around 310 MPA and up. So yes I think you should be OK. You may want to chat with some welders in your area, at the end of the day, buy them a bucket of that frothy cold stuff and talk some about prep and what filler wire to use. Using the wrong wire for the steel you are using can be very bad.
You must walk a fine line on how much you are willing to have the frame distort in a collision. The c0ckpit should never distort but all other tubes should bend to adsorb the shock. This is why you want mild steel over a Chrome Moly type tube. In our Drag racing NHRA Top Fuel class, the whole frame is Moly tubed but after everything is welded up, the whole frame is put in an oven and heat treated, $$$$$.
When using a tubing outside the "Best" range, you may need to go up a size in tube diameter and/or add a few extra tubes and/or gussets.
One thing to remember, this is a free forum and most of us are hobby welders. The info is worth what you paid for it. You would be better informed if you read what we say, then confer with a local "PRO".
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Post by stretchmobileski on Mar 21, 2014 13:08:15 GMT -5
There is 10's of thousands of sand rails out there made of mild steel tubing being thrashed on the weekends by jumping and racing. Unless you are full out racing or competing, DOM isn't necessary. It's nice and you can brag about it, but it is very expensive and heavier in a lot of situations.
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Post by stretchmobileski on Mar 21, 2014 13:22:36 GMT -5
Thanks Dave much appreciated I have nearly finished the main frame and c0ckpit, tubes and angles or compound mitres are not my thing I am finding the waste I am producing is unbelievable some joins I have cut 3 times to get a tight fit so 2 of them end up in the bin or used for shorter joins. I can not wait until the engine becomes one with the frame, some time off yet. Regards Ned
You get better at it with experience. Everyone has waste and makes errors. Keep plugging away. They make tools to help, Harbor Freight has a tubing notcher for cutting tubing at angles and there is a device made of rods to get the shape of the cut. I have a grinding wheel that is rounded that I use on my big bench grinder for shaping.   |
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Post by DaveJ98092 on Mar 22, 2014 0:07:35 GMT -5
Ned, maybe we can get you to start your own build topic and we can post questions and answers on there.
Anyway, another tool to use is PVC piping. You can cut it to rough fitment, trim and then transfer to the steel tube.
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Post by jim99 on Mar 22, 2014 9:10:11 GMT -5
Hi Ned,
Good Luck on your new build. Keep us posted as to your progress and post pictures. All of here on the reverse trike forum will offer any advice and guidance we can.
Jim
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Post by stretchmobileski on Mar 22, 2014 12:32:59 GMT -5
Are you using any kind of jig? Even a piece of plywood on the floor with 2x4 blocks to position the tubes helps. I have a chassis table I built for other builds. I found some 8" C channel cheap and made a 10' x 5' table I can square up and level. Then I use lengths of steel and tons of c clamps to hold things in place as I position tubes before welding. The table has a string in the exact center that I reference off of. It's really hard to be dead nuts. You will probably have some movement when welding and have to except it.  |
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Post by DaveJ98092 on Mar 22, 2014 19:22:04 GMT -5
Nice thing about a steel table is you can tack weld parts to it, then grind it off, weld in any gouges and grind it flat.
Yes a plywood jig table will help if made sturdy.
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Post by DaveJ98092 on Mar 23, 2014 17:37:55 GMT -5
There is 10's of thousands of sand rails out there made of mild steel tubing being thrashed on the weekends by jumping and racing. Unless you are full out racing or competing, DOM isn't necessary. It's nice and you can brag about it, but it is very expensive and heavier in a lot of situations. I just want to add to this. All structural tubes should be of mild steel of the proper thickness, this is a given for safety. But any braces or brackets that hold or support things like a dash or mirrors can be thinner tubing, even electrical EMT tube. There are 1,000 of Air Boats/Sand rails/trikes/racecars built with EMT tubing. The seam is welded but not rolled on a mandril so it should not be a structural member of the chassis. IF WELDING ANY GALVANIZED PIPE, GRIND ALL THE GALVANIZING OFF THE WELD AREAS. DO NOT BREATH THE FUMES OF THIS WELDING!!! ZINC POISONING IS DEADLY!!! DO A SEARCH ON GALVANIZE FLU |
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Post by nedkelly on Sept 15, 2014 2:15:45 GMT -5
Well, here we go.
First thankyou Captain for the inspiration to do this thing, it is a copy of yours but with some Aussie input, right or wrong who cares!
I first saw a Reverse Trike here in Melbourne Australia a few months ago, I was driving to a friends factory in Bayswater Classic car restorations owned by Peter Tommasini and I just wanted one. So I searched the web and found the Captains build and have been hooked ever since.
I will try and put some photos up but I am not very good with the computer so will see how it goes.
So above is the first of 5 attempts, as you can see the donor bike is in the background untouched but soon to be pulled apart.
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Post by nedkelly on Sept 15, 2014 2:35:38 GMT -5
Apart from the angle grinder, I have 2 Migs, 1 Tig, 1 plasma cutter. I also have a Bridgeport Mill which I used for the notching of the pipe work, and a Metal lathe.
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Post by nedkelly on Sept 15, 2014 2:45:35 GMT -5
unfortunately I did not take many pictures early on so I can only show you where I am up to today. Below is the Trike today, less the gear lever which I hooked up today.
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Post by captainamerica on Sept 15, 2014 7:12:31 GMT -5
Sweet! Haha looking good sir, if you need any help with design let me now. I have been working on a new chassis design thats similar to the original but should be easier to construct, I'll add a picture of it tonight, it actually has a few mods that you have already done.  This is my current chassis in solid works, I think I am going to move to a suspension mount system more like the rear of this hill climb car. www.quattroforum.com/index.php?threads/my-audi-s1-hill-climb-car-build.15395/ |
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Post by Liteway on Sept 15, 2014 7:31:37 GMT -5
Sorry, your thread had been inactive for months and I forgot you had one. Looks like you are quite a way along. Keep up the good work and make more frequent posts.
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Post by nedkelly on Sept 15, 2014 15:44:42 GMT -5
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Post by captainamerica on Sept 16, 2014 17:11:24 GMT -5
Does your engine come out the top? I dig how you added the engine side mounts into the chassis tube. I was afraid it would be to difficult to work in that area with extra bars.
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Post by nedkelly on Sept 17, 2014 4:23:40 GMT -5
Hello Captain
No the engine when and if needed to be removed will be lowered out the bottom of the frame, so will the fuel tank as there is still more pipe work for the top.
Yes I thought the front engine mounts were a good idea.
At the moment I am working on the rear engine mounts as I do not think the thin walled tubing will hold up to the forces of the swing arm long term.
Tonight I machined down a car axle from my son's blown Ford diff to 30mm diameter and have machined one end and cut a thread to allow a 22mm high tensile bolt to screw into it, then cut the head of the bolt off then drilled a 10mm hole through the centre of the bolt. Which will allow the original lower rear engine mount bolt to be placed through it and bolted to the engine casing and then screw on the 30mm solid steel engine mount shaft and connect to the frame. One down 3 to go.
Your new frame looks fantastic when are you going to build it?
Ned. |
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Post by nedkelly on Sept 20, 2014 0:56:42 GMT -5
Lower engine swing arm mounts almost done, shafts are 30mm diameter solid 1020, swing arm mounts 5.0mm wall thickness, 40mm outer diameter, 30mm inner diameter and extend 60mmm 30mm either side to carry the load, bolts to engine casing are 22mm 1.5 pitch high tensile, maybe a little over kill, but hopefully will make the rear end sturdy and strong and put the power to the ground. You may also see in the photo that the shocker mounting shaft is adjustable. I have the same problem that the Captain had with things getting rusty, must work faster!
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