New look for old trike.

[captainamerica]

Looks like you got some good marks on the pavement to make life easier when measuring, is your measurement chassis center to chassis center?

[DaveJ98092]

Both look good. the only problems with an enclosed "Cabin" cockpit is sun heat ventilation and rain on the windshield. Then the safity police will say "What happens if you roll over on the roof?" but even on an open cockpit you would have a very hard time getting out if upside down.

[Liteway]

Feb 24, 2016 12:47:16 GMT -5 DaveJ98092 said:

Both look good. the only problems with an enclosed "Cabin" cockpit is sun heat ventilation and rain on the windshield. Then the safity police will say "What happens if you roll over on the roof?" but even on an open cockpit you would have a very hard time getting out if upside down.

No argument. It would be an oven in the summer.

I would put in fan assisted ventilation along with a small slider along the side of the windshield. Just remove the entire canopy for hottest months, when I only venture out in the evening anyway.

Rain would have to delt with the same way touring bike riders do it. Lots of RainX. The difference is I would not also have to deal with a wet fogged visor or pull over to put on rain gear. I think I could also provide for demisting with the heater.


With said heater, should be great 6 mos. of the year.
Don't think of it as a step down from the comfort of a modern car. It's a big step up over a bike's comfort and safety, while providing a comparable(IMO superior) fun factor.


As for the safety police, I got no answer for them.


Hey, if it was good enough for Gurney and Foyt at Le mans, its good enough for me. No way for them to budge those gull winged doors if the roof was against the ground.

Correction 2/28

Technically, the GT 40s did not have gull wing doors, as they hinged conventionally from the front, not from the roof. However, As with the gull winged Mercedes, the door was part of the roof making for a difficult exit in either if the car landed upside down.

[Liteway]

Never mind the current chassis. It's refined out to a logical stopping point. Does not make sense to dismember something that works so well. Think I'll keep the trike intact, sell it cheap and start with a clean sheet.

Aluminum Monocoque tub with a minimal tube sub-frame to support the engine installed as a stressed member.
Braced aluminum swing arm with front pivot concentric with counter sprocket.

Starting to see a lot of Can Am spider front end parts on eBay. I'll go with that front end attached directly to the tub.
Once again modified with side stick steering and inboard coil overs.
Engine of choice at this time would be from a Fz09 Yamaha donor also giving up its rear wheel which is wide enough for a 205/17

The Yamaha only has 115hp from 850cc but it's modern 3 cylinder design leaves it lighter than any of the current liter bike engines and even lighter than the 600 4 I'm using now.
Great low end torque , but still with a good top end pull to above 10 grand.

I'm betting I can keep the weight of the whole shabang no heavier than what I have now. About 550.

[edvb]

I am at the same point. You get to a point where you may second guess what you did and try a few things but come back to where you were. I cannot do anymore to my Eco Exo R at this time and not worth making any more changes.

You have a great looking trike and time will tell what you finally decided to what you want to do. I am sure yours will be done before the first Elio rolls of the assembly line.

Mine weighs 572 LBS with full fuel and only have 32HP but with the CVT it is quick enough for me.

Now decision time on what way to go. Good luck.

Edward

[Liteway]

Thanks Edward

Whats next.

With my first autocross done, (see story telling) I'm off my malaise and into improvement for this use. I did not do particularly well, but well enough to be convinced that a tadpole trike configuration can be competitively auto crossed with sufficient development.(not against the fastest road or track specific cars).

The most obviously needed and easily implemented improvement in my case is better roll control. Beyond just making the trike more responsive in transitional and steady state cornering, it will result in maintaining a better rear contact patch allowing tidier corner exit, and less likely lifting of the inside wheel.

Given that and a slightly wider rear tire, I believe I could get another 30 or 40 hp down. I can get a lot of that if I can ever get my current engine delivering its full potential. After that, something needs to done about the brakes, which just won't cut it on the wide open courses that seem to be favored around here.

Aside from the these mechanical improvements, the nut behind the wheel needs to be tightened, lots of time lost there, but mostly a matter of practice.

Had a heck of a good time, even finishing much closer to the end of pack than the front, but I'm not interested in staying back there and if can't move up a bunch, I'll find something else to do.

The fastest time of the day was set by a highly modified EVO.
I spoke with Its affable driver, Andy. Turns out he is an official with another local club that holds events at the same venue.
He said his club is a lot less rule oriented than PCA and I would be welcome anytime they run, though that is somewhat irregular. He said he thought the next one would be run in August, but was not sure. He will E-mail me.

Later: County officials have ruled the track off limits for private club events.
I'm back to nowhere to race.

[Liteway]

Oct 28, 2014 9:43:11 GMT -5 Liteway said:

Alas, Its not real. Was rotating the tires on my Focus and wondered what the affect would be if I stood the wheels up alongside the trike.



But as you can see from this angle the wheels are not attached.
The big improvement in the trike's stance has me researching an alternative front end again. I would not go with meatballs this big though.(215/55/16, 7in wheel width).


I'm thinking more like Can AM Spyder size rubber.(165/65/14 5" rim width, I believe). These would match up better to the 175/55/17 5" rear and I would still have more contact rubber to the road, pound for pound than a Corvette.
That size would allow better looks and bigger brakes without the burden of too much extra mass. Might improve stability as well.
Assuming this chassis could be modified to accept the changes, it would take months of work and be expensive, so probably won't happen.

Walked out to the garage this morning and noticed my front discs were a lovely shade of anodized blue.

I had already began gathering Can AM parts for a front end swap. Looks like that was a good decision.
More brakes mean I can use more power. Will be shopping for a totaled FZ/9 too.

[DaveJ98092]

You have been bitten hard.

[mtntech]

Jun 30, 2016 12:03:26 GMT -5 Liteway said:

Oct 28, 2014 9:43:11 GMT -5 Liteway said:

Alas, Its not real. Was rotating the tires on my Focus and wondered what the affect would be if I stood the wheels up alongside the trike.

The big improvement in the trike's stance has me researching an alternative front end again. I would not go with meatballs this big though.(215/55/16, 7in wheel width).


I'm thinking more like Can AM Spyder size rubber.(165/65/14 5" rim width, I believe). These would match up better to the 175/55/17 5" rear and I would still have more contact rubber to the road, pound for pound than a Corvette.
That size would allow better looks and bigger brakes without the burden of too much extra mass. Might improve stability as well.
Assuming this chassis could be modified to accept the changes, it would take months of work and be expensive, so probably won't happen.

Walked out to the garage this morning and noticed my front discs were a lovely shade of anodized blue.

I had already began gathering Can AM parts for a front end swap. Looks like that was a good decision.
More brakes mean I can use more power. Will be shopping for a totaled fz 09 too.

Good plan.

[Liteway]

Already have most of the parts needed for the front end conversion. It was a lot easier in time and money than I would have thought. All courtesy of Ebay and tire rack.

Upper A-arms with ball joints and bushings 140
Lower Arms with the same 120
Uprights and hubs with all bearings and
seals installed ,even came with lugs 192
Pr of 4 piston calipers complete with
lightly worn pads 90
Pr of 9 1/4" rotors, very little wear 90
Pr of BRP factory wheels, new in the box 115
Pr of Kumo 165/55/14s new from tire rack 104
Shipping est. 110

Total 961
Everything has been bolted together to insure compatibility. All parts were specified for a 2009 Can Am Spyder RT.

I will need some additional bolts and washers and couple of the ball joints are not tight, but shouldn't be out more than another 100 bucks or so.
Arms will need to be cut shorter for my application, but that will be far easier than scratch building them.

Down side. Won't know how/if the geometry can be worked out till I get a proper table and a mock up done. It's going to be a lot heavier than the ATV front end. Hoping ride and handling will not be too negatively affected.May have to change my handle again, not-so-liteway.

[Liteway]

I could not wait the 4-6 months it will take to graft on the new front to see what it will look like so after I got tires mounted on the wheels this morning, I set up another dummy photo.

[DaveJ98092]

You're such a tease.

[mtntech]

Looks way better!

[Liteway]

Changed residences this month. The last couple of months have been about house hunting and moving so behind on my intended completion time.

It's a forty minute drive to the old house where I still have my shop intact, so I'm commuting, tying to get this done before attempting to move the shop works. If I can get another couple of full days in,
should be done before New Year.

Caster, camber, ride height,and effective spring rate are adjustable.
After cutting the lower arms by 6.5"s and the upper by 7, track still increases by 3" (57.5) both over what it was and the stock Spyder. The Spyder places the inner pivots of the lower arms very close to accommodate its ATV type steering. No room for a foot box and none needed. Not the best design, probably leaves some bump steer as the arms and tie rods still wind up different lengths, though not by much. Cheap to produce though, no doubt.

I also cut away the mounting bungs for the lower shock mounts, inverted them and swapped sides so I could obtain the right angle on the suspension push rods without changing the angles of the bell cranks which would have been much more troublesome. The bell cranks still had to be modified, if less drastically, as the new geometry resulted in too little spring firmness so they had to be taken apart and the holes for mounting the upper end of the suspension push rods redrilled closer to the bell crank central pivot to firm things up. The plates are starting to look like Swiss cheese.

Of course all the mounting flanges for the arms inner pivots had to be cut away, re-positioned and re-welded. After this was done, I later discovered they were too far rearward to integrate the steering and suspension bits to work properly. Had to cut those all away and do it again, the most time wasting disheartening part of the change so far.

The steering arms, which were cast as part of the uprights,also had to be cut away, as their position would not work for steering that passes under my upper ankles. They were replaced using a fabricated steel/ aluminum part attached to the factory tapped fender mount bungs.

Other mods included re routing the brake lines , redesigning the central steering shaft, and making longer suspension push rods and tie rods and changes to body panels.
Piece of cake.

[joe]

I have read your posts from the beginning under build projects. Looks like lots of trial & error modifications simular to what I've experienced. The trike is very sharp looking in both versions. I was curious to see the linkage kinematics of your steering, its hard to see from the jpeg's. The 3 Scoote Coupes I worked on had the first generation of their steering linkage. Around 2008 they offered a 150cc version went to rack & pinion steering and improved suspension that made a huge difference.The is no steering wheel instead they use motorcycle handlebars, so steering is extremely sensitive like a go kart. I hope the Can-Am front end is not too problematic, good luck!

[Liteway]

This is the most inclusive view I can give you.

[joe]

Very unique design it appears the two steering handles move opposite directions in a fairly linear fashion with proportion to the wheel track. I'm sure it would take some getting used to when trying it for the first time, I could see why googd center return tracking is so important.

[Liteway]

Yeah, whether by stick or wheel, you cannot have good steering without a slack free mechanism tied to a front end with proper geometry.

It didn't take much acclimation for me, felt natural from the start.

Extreme steering angles for good turn radius.
Turns sharper than with the tens. Scrub free even at these angles, 37degees inside, 30 outside (with 0 toe)

[Liteway]

Finally got in a few test miles today, 35 degree weather be d--ned.

No bad for a first shakedown, rides about like it did , finally corners as flat as I like and brakes are great. Nose pitch and therefore stability under braking is very good. Only disappointment was in the old bugaboo, straight line stability. Got a little freaky on a road it would take just fine before. Not too worried though, fenders are not on yet, more caster can be adjusted in and bump steer has only been eyeball adjusted.




I had thought keeping it flat in the corners would help with rear wheel traction on corner exit.
Could not tell it, felt greasy back there, maybe brake fluid or antifreeze on the rubber from the brake bleed and cooling system recharge, I hope. WE all love more power, But this trike would benefit more with better traction (bigger rubber out back). Its always something.

Adding 40 lbs on the front and none on the rear probably did hurt traction.
Weight distribution goes from 52.5/47.5 to 55/45. So 40 lbs heavier and less traction, I've done myself no favors for acceleration. No choice though, had to have decent brakes.

As an aside, I have become a true believer in Lithium batteries. Trike had not been started in several months, no trickle charger help, and still had enough power in the 35 degree weather to allow a lot of grinding on the starter till the old cold blooded (carburetor-ed) beast finally fired.

[Liteway]

I figured the car tire I got for the rear should have been good for 20k plus. Nope.

Has 5k on it and will probably be down to the wear bars in another 2k.
The single autocross event resulted in visible wear.


Reverse trikes are simply hell on rear tires.

I have to come up with an offset counter sprocket to fit a 195. If anyone knows where one can be obtained or fabricated, let me know.
Anything bigger would require a redesign of the whole back end for a wider wheel.

If I were to go that route, I would wait till I'm ready for an engine swap and go to to a 245/40 or bigger.

Not going to happen soon, if ever.