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Post by srx660 on Dec 18, 2008 13:13:06 GMT -5
I just wanted opinions and information on using regular auto FWD powertrains. I personally prefer the motorcycles in the 750 range and even would consider using quad powertrains, but the auto holds the best promise of cheap readily converted engins and trans. What do you think? And what do you prefer? Cheap american cars? Subaru, unusual drivetrains? Heres a typical FWD american drivetrain. SRX660
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2008 14:30:06 GMT -5
are you thinking of making a mid motor car or making a front wheel tran into a rwd trans (by moving the motor transversely and getting rid of the long cv shaft, welding the diff. and plugging the long cv shaft hole on the trans and using the remaining cv shaft as a drive shaft to you rear diff)
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2008 20:54:48 GMT -5
I’m planning a late model Honda Civic or Insight powered front wheel drive hybrid trike. So I guess my vote is for front engine front wheel drive but a good design will always be a good design and a bad design will kill you no matter where the engine or drive wheels are located. I guess my philosophy has always been to underuse the powertrain and it should last forever.
I picked up the tubing yesterday and bending should start this weekend. I can’t start welding till Christmas day because my old MIG welder died and a new Millermatic 180 is hiding under the tree. Earl
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2008 11:58:16 GMT -5
what are you useing Earl to bend the pipe? Sid
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2008 12:58:12 GMT -5
Greetings Gents ... With apologies for not having provided any photos for you to look at, I will shortly I promise, my RT used the front end from a Renault R-5 LeCar. This included the engine and transmission, upper and lower control arms, shocks, all the steering pieces from the rack and steering arms back up to the steering wheel and even the original torsion bars. With a few possible exceptions, it worked great. The biggest problem I encountered was the compromise between springing (torsion bar adjustment) and ride height. The second biggest problem I found was bump steer. I think that both of these conditions are related in that I took a suspension that was meant to hold up a 2500+ pound vehicle and I put it under a +/- 1000 pound vehicle (with the driver). The culprit was the torsion bar itself which provided very little adjustment, if any. It was a matter of trial and error that went on over a number of years where I would adjust torsion bar preload, move the steering rack forward and back, made adjustments to the toe in or toe out, camber and caster. After a while I had a pretty good idea of what happened if I did this or that, and I am now able to say that the vehicle drives and handles like a motorized rollerskate. It is tremendous fun, and the process of working everything out, although challenging, was very rewarding in the end.
I would like to make one more comment on using a FWD auto for the donor. I was also able to use the instrument cluster, wiring harness, rear tail lamp assemblies, fuel tank sender, fuel inlet pipe and cap, emergency brake lever (the single rear wheel is the left rear trailing arm from the car so I wound up with a parking brake as a bonus!) and even the brake proportioning valve for the rear wheel. There were a few other things too like switches from the dash, the fuse box, brake master cylinder and, of course, all of the accessory parts for the engine like the fuel pump, alternator, water pump, and possibly even the radiator. In my case, the radiator from the car was too big to fit so I chose to modify a rebuilt radiator from an Austin Marina, believe it or not.
As for other parts, my seat came from a Honda Prelude but it was sectioned and recovered. The headlamp shells are Harley Davidson Sportster head lamp replacement shells. The grill came from a Mercury Monarch. The front turn signal lamps, unfortunately, were purchased new and were meant to be the amber running lights that so many people use up on the cab roof of their pickups. OH ... I used the stock exhaust headers and so the exhaust pipe was custom made at Mieneke Discount Mufflers when they cut off an 8 foot piece of straight pipe and shrunk one end. The muffler also was new and it is a SuperTrap that was stuck on out on the end of the tailpipe. There is nothing fancy about this vehicle, I can assure you of that.
I wrote all of this down in hopes that some of the guys will read this, those whose posts I read where they are designing control arms and steering geometry and fitting this with that and on and on. It just sounds to me like a while lot of trouble and expense when there is a much simpler and cheaper alternative (with a lot less build time) available to them. I fully understand the motivation for sticking an already running motorcycle at the rear end ... a whole lot of engineering that the builder doesn't have to do. But, in my mind, front wheel drive is the way to go and I just grin all day long when I think of how much usable stuff I got off of a $250 investment in a junk car.
OK. That ought to be enough to give someone something to chew on it. Whose next?
John Washbush Heltonville, Indiana
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2008 21:21:38 GMT -5
Sid. I’m a student at the local adult school and they have a couple nice tube benders. It’s worth the $220 every 4 months to have there tools, machines and welders available 5 days a week. Earl
John Your LeCar powered trike sounds great. Where are the pictures Earl
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Post by F3W on Jan 3, 2009 20:37:10 GMT -5
I want to add my 2 cents on the subject if I may...
I strongly believe that a RT will handle so much better having 2 wheels pulling you around a turn rather then one big one pushing you around that same corner...if you watch the T-Rex videos, that is a perfect example of having too much power that will get you killed!!
Ya, it's fun to burn rubber and create all the tire shredding noise...but what you end up with is just that...a RT that is good for doing great burn outs.
I have seen many other overpowered RT's that can't hold their own on youtube...stay with the FWD design and don't change anything!
You got a good thing going.
Dave
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Post by 3verse on Jan 3, 2009 22:12:11 GMT -5
Actually that's not true. You are always better off having your steering wheels and drive wheels being separate. The problem with the T-Rex is that it has too much power going to a single drive wheel, and it's wieght distribution could be shifted around more effectively.
That said, I still think a FWD RT would be awesome and capable of having amazing handling as well.
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Post by curvecutter on Jan 3, 2009 23:06:56 GMT -5
Another factor is how much road grip you can attain. ie contact patch. My Grinnall Scorpion has 140 hp to the single rear wheel and I have no problems with slippage due to the 10" wide automotive type tire that runs at 24 psi. It is impossible to break it loose unless you dump the clutch.
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Post by F3W on Jan 4, 2009 1:18:35 GMT -5
That's one nice Scorpion you've got there ;D...and yes, you guys are probably right about weight distribution...I am sure the T-Rex has way too much weight up front...I believe they run a 12" rear tire don't they...anyway...I still would be willing to bet on a FWD set up over a single rear wheel drive system...no hard feelings curvecutter, but if you have two RT's at the same weight and one being a FWD setup and you drive them both through a windy road course, my money would be on the FWD RT...that's just my opinion based on a proven theory...do you think that every auto manufacture chose to go FWD because it was not a better setup, no...they went that direction due to the fact that pulling a car around a corner is a lot more energy efficient then pushing a car around a corner.
Don't get me wrong here cuz I like any RT combination...I have nothing against a single wheel drive system...they work just fine too...I just prefer to pull a car then to push one.
Dave
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Post by 3verse on Jan 4, 2009 10:17:59 GMT -5
The question isn't whether you are pulling or pushing a car through corners -- the question is whether or not your steering wheels are also your drive wheels. Nearly every supercar or 100,000+ sportscar ever made is rear wheel drive (they could certainly afford to make them FWD, but they don't for a reason). In a FWD car you are steering with the same wheels that you use to push/pull the car with -- therefore you have more opportunities to lose control of the car.
For example, in a FWD car, if your drive tires break loose because of power or accellerating too hard, you also lose control of your steering. But, in a RWD car, if your drive tires break loose, you still maintain full control of your steering tires because they are not also your drive tires.
This has nothing to do with FWD vs. RWD -- this has to do with separating the utility of steering from the utility of driving/pushing/pulling. When the same tires that steer are also the tires that push/pull your car, your rear tires have no function -- thus you lose functionality because the car both drives and steers with the same tires.
That said, there are some BIG advantages to FWD, but it's not in the cornering per se. The advantage to FWD in a trike is that you keep a majority of your weight toward the front of the vehicle, and you also keep a large amount of weight over your drive tires. Therefore, you could have an advantage over CERTAIN types of RWD trikes because of their weight distribution, and how well they can keep traction with their rear tire.
In other words, what I'm trying to say is that this is a complex question. If we are just comparing FWD to RWD in theory -- RWD wins hands down. BUT, in the real world, we know that there are many different types/designs of FWD and RWD vehicles, and when it comes to trikes this is just the same. I think a FWD trike makes it much easier to maintain the correct weight distribution among the three tires, and the weight of the engine over the drive tires is an advantage as well. BUT, a properly designed RWD trike should be able to account for these problems effectively through careful design and building. In the end, the only way to really tell is to take our RTs to the track and find out! ;D
If you ask me, this just gives us an excuse to plan a road trip sometime in the future...keep building guys!
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Post by jim99 on Jan 4, 2009 14:46:50 GMT -5
Hi All,
Do not base your opinion of a vehicles handling on the stupid video you view on you-tube. Most of what you view as poor handling is related to the loose nut behind the steering wheel. I personally like the audio I have heard more than once on those video's "Did you get that on camera?".
Try to design your reverse trike to suit all your needs and wants the best as possible, not just "handling".
Real life - Corvair, Corvette, Chevette, Jeep, Hummer, Low Rider, Monster Truck w/10" lift kit, they all go down the road just fine, but they all were designed for a certain purpose.
Yours, Jim
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Post by 3verse on Jan 4, 2009 17:58:03 GMT -5
Hi All, Do not base your opinion of a vehicles handling on the stupid video you view on you-tube. Most of what you view as poor handling is related to the loose nut behind the steering wheel. I personally like the audio I have heard more than once on those video's "Did you get that on camera?". Try to design your reverse trike to suit all your needs and wants the best as possible, not just "handling". Real life - Corvair, Corvette, Chevette, Jeep, Hummer, Low Rider, Monster Truck w/10" lift kit, they all go down the road just fine, but they all were designed for a certain purpose. Yours, Jim Well said Jim.
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Post by 3verse on Jan 5, 2009 17:12:40 GMT -5
Here's a FWD RT that I've always thought was cool:
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Post by Giovanni LiCalsi on Dec 23, 2009 18:51:37 GMT -5
The very best weight distribution is with the motor on the front axle being front-wheel-drive.Engineering study after another has shown that the cg should be just behind the front axle of a reverse-trike. Attachments:
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Post by Giovanni LiCalsi on Dec 23, 2009 18:54:58 GMT -5
Another Image Attachments:
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Post by Giovanni LiCalsi on Dec 23, 2009 19:08:21 GMT -5
I'm designing a Ducati 1098 electric vehicle reverse-trike.The 45hp ac motor will be ahead of the front axle belt-driving a Honda limited-slip-diff.I'm using Porsche axles with modified GM/Ducati 1098 center-lock hubs.The nice thing about using Ducati bike parts is that I can use carbon fiber wheels weighing 5lbs. each.I'm using Ducati/Brembo monoblock calipers/rotors.The single-sided swing-arm is bullet-proof ,too.I'm using the rear Ducati 1098 shocks front and rear on the trike.The chassis will be designed like the epoxy/aluminum/bonded Lotus car.It is superlight and twice as strong as tube steel.Aluminum tube prices are very depressed now so it is no more expensive than a steel chassis and is easy to fabricate.If you can Bondo auto sheet metal and can use an electric or air drill to drill screw rivets,you are qualified! Here is an interesting article on aluminum bonding. Enjoy!
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Post by Giovanni LiCalsi on Dec 23, 2009 19:18:19 GMT -5
Here is an image of the bonded aluminum Lotus chassis. Attachments:
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Post by Giovanni LiCalsi on Dec 23, 2009 19:20:00 GMT -5
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Post by Giovanni LiCalsi on Dec 23, 2009 19:20:57 GMT -5
Image Attachments:
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