Not Yet Named Reverse Trike

[1983JZR3W]

I use Firestone 155SRx15 tires on my JZR reverse trike. The front wheels are MGTD wires (4.4x15) and the rear is a Citroen 2CV outer rim with a Honda CX650 center welded in. So far in over four years, no issues at all.

[joeld0803]

Yea the Mustang 2 spindles are pretty heavy if you are trying to keep the weight down. I went with the Mustang 2 on my bandit project but this being my first build I decided to go for stregth as well as design more over performance.

Next build I do I will try to incorporate both a little better and try to keep the weight down a little and maybe find a more powerful powerplant.

[hydrojim]

I found some good wheels on summit racing that have normal bolt patterns and fit thin tires, so that problem is solved.

Now I need to find a good front suspension setup.

All the uprights/spindles I've been looking at have the steering arm(where the tie rod end attaches) facing towards the back of the car. In order to keep a shorter wheel base, I would prefer the steering arms to face towards the front so that I could keep my steering rack closer to the front.

This may sound dumb, but is it possible to simply switch right and left side uprights, spindles, hubs, and rotors? I'm guessing that shouldn't work because then the hub will be trying to spin itself off of the spindle...

Does anyone know where I can get the pieces that I describe?

captainamerica is machining his own so I showed a picture of what I'm looking for:

[fredvv44]

Jan 24, 2013 16:39:46 GMT -5 hydrojim said:

I found some good wheels on summit racing that have normal bolt patterns and fit thin tires, so that problem is solved.

Now I need to find a good front suspension setup.

All the uprights/spindles I've been looking at have the steering arm(where the tie rod end attaches) facing towards the back of the car. In order to keep a shorter wheel base, I would prefer the steering arms to face towards the front so that I could keep my steering rack closer to the front.

This may sound dumb, but is it possible to simply switch right and left side uprights, spindles, hubs, and rotors? I'm guessing that shouldn't work because then the hub will be trying to spin itself off of the spindle...

Does anyone know where I can get the pieces that I describe?

captainamerica is machining his own so I showed a picture of what I'm looking for:

Chevy Chevette and Pontiac Fiero use front steer uprights. They are light and the Fiero ones are available in a 2" drop spindle. you can see them in my blog:
www.jzrusa2.blogspot.com
Fred V

[hydrojim]

I like what you've done.

Those are chevette spindles?

[hydrojim]

What do you guys think about taking the ATV spindles that I was planning on using and rotating them about their axis so that instead of being bottom rear-steer spindles, they become top front steer. The ackermann looks pretty good based on the pictures I have off the internet and I can compensate with steering rack location. The biggest thing is it kind of throws of the ball joint angles, but I don't think this is a big deal as long as my A-arm lengths are correct? The reason I ask is because front steer fits my trikes really well and ATV bits are about the lightest front end I'm going to find.

Here is the spindle arranged the way that I was thinking:

[DaveJ98092]

On your Donor bike, there are a few good choices in the 250 - 300 range. The 2012 Ninja 300 would be excellent. Honda CBR250, Hyosung GT250R, Yamaha V-Star 250 also. These can be found crashed but usable at auctions. I am a member on www.Copart.com and have bought a few bikes for parts. I got a bent fork Hyosung GT650R with 2500 miles on it for $350 and with all fees and sales tax it was $600 out the door. Used the engine on a Suzuki V-Strom 650 with a blown engine. Same engine, just made in Korea.

Here is a Copart listing for two Hyosung's a 250 and a 650.

www.copart.com/c2/homeSearch.html?criteriaType=fullTextSearch&returnPage=home&searchType=&isFromHomePage=Y&filterBaseLabel=HYOSUNG&oQuickSearch=Y&freshRequired=true&textSearch=HYOSUNG&textSearchType=AND&ftOptions=%2B&searchScope=i&txtAutoComplete=HYOSUNG

And two Honda CBR250's.

www.copart.com/c2/homeSearch.html?criteriaType=fullTextSearch&returnPage=home&searchType=&isFromHomePage=Y&filterBaseLabel=CBR250&oQuickSearch=Y&freshRequired=true&textSearch=CBR250&textSearchType=AND&ftOptions=%2B&searchScope=i&txtAutoComplete=CBR250

[fredvv44]

Mar 11, 2013 23:47:13 GMT -5 hydrojim said:

What do you guys think about taking the ATV spindles that I was planning on using and rotating them about their axis so that instead of being bottom rear-steer spindles, they become top front steer. The ackermann looks pretty good based on the pictures I have off the internet and I can compensate with steering rack location. The biggest thing is it kind of throws of the ball joint angles, but I don't think this is a big deal as long as my A-arm lengths are correct? The reason I ask is because front steer fits my trikes really well and ATV bits are about the lightest front end I'm going to find.

Here is the spindle arranged the way that I was thinking:

What you propose will mean the upper arm is longer than the lower arm. Even if you make new a-arms the lower ball joint will be inboard of the upper. This will cause camber problems with body roll and bounce.
Fred V

[hydrojim]

Is there no way to compensate for this difference?

The suspension simulators that I'm looking actually result in negative camber, but I could be doing something wrong...

[fredvv44]

Mar 12, 2013 19:01:20 GMT -5 hydrojim said:

Is there no way to compensate for this difference?

The suspension simulators that I'm looking actually result in negative camber, but I could be doing something wrong...

You must be doing something wrong. When the wheel goes up the upper a-arm will push the top out and the lower arm will pull the bottom joint in. also the upper ball joint won't make a very good lower ball joint. They aren't designed to take that vertical load. Another point is that many states will not allow ATV parts on a street car.
Fred V

[captainamerica]

Dennis Palatov, at dpcars.net, makes and sells uprights and spindles that are pretty simple and reversible if you can stomach $600 a wheel and they work with wilwood calipers.

www.palatov.com/products/suspension.html

-Andrew

[hydrojim]

fredv-

I'm using this: www.racingaspirations.com/suspension-geometry-calculator

But I've used a more advanced one and got the same results

Here are my inputs:
upper wishbone length: 340mm
lower wishbone length: 300mm
distance between hub: 200mm
distance between chassis: 153mm

The initial camber says: 11 but the spindle doesn't stick straight out from the upright, so initially it's at 0. I'm more interested in the deflection which shows negative camber when it's lifted up.

It make sense in my head, but I figure there has to be a reason that all spindles are designed otherwise.

As far as balljoints go, I'm not using the original ones from the ATV so I'm not worried about that. and I'm making my own control arms.

captainamerica- I've seen those, but $600 a wheel is a third of my budget! so I can't do that.

[hydrojim]

Did some work on a basic sketch-up model. It's not done, so they're will be more triangulation and stuff. I may work on the front end aerodynamics a little bit, but in it's current state, it should be good for a Cd of .17 or beyond.



I did a little more suspension analysis using vsusp.com and I've come to the conclusion that using the spindles upside down from the way they were used on the ATV shouldn't come with any huge problems.

Nothing can really beat the weight of 30 lbs per corner for the wheel, tire, upright, spindle, hub, rotor, and caliper set-up that I have in mind. Plus, It'll only cost me $550 for the whole set-up.

[Liteway]

Are ATV parts legal for road use in your state?

I think they are good idea for light weight trikes if they are used as they were designed and legal. Putting top to bottom will not work out for you.

So why can't you use rear facing steering arms?

I have used them and one short coming is that the bottom arm is only slightly longer that the top. This produces less than optimal camber angles in hard cornering. Nonetheless I can still corner hard enough to lift the inside wheel so camber and grip are not limiting factors in my case.

If you do what you propose, your front end geometry will be very screwed up and you will be cornering on the very outside edge of the outside tire.

[hydrojim]

Ohio has very relaxed laws regarding custom cars. As long as you can prove you bought it, and it passes regular vehicle laws, they don't care.

I understand what you're saying, but I really want to avoid rear facing steering arms because it would add 12 inches to the length of my trike and being powered by a 250cc engine, every pound matters.

I ran a suspension simulator using the spindles both ways. using as they were intended, the car handled normally like any other car would.

Using them as I propose resulted in 7 degrees of positive camber if I was experiencing body roll extreme enough to make the chassis hit the ground. During normal driving, my camber would stay close to zero in turns.

I think since the difference between ball joint locations is only about an inch, and my control arms are so long, that this makes up for the difference and is the reason I'm not experiencing what is expected to happen.

[fredvv44]

Mar 13, 2013 19:23:36 GMT -5 hydrojim said:

fredv-

I'm using this: www.racingaspirations.com/suspension-geometry-calculator

But I've used a more advanced one and got the same results

Here are my inputs:
upper wishbone length: 340mm
lower wishbone length: 300mm
distance between hub: 200mm
distance between chassis: 153mm

The initial camber says: 11 but the spindle doesn't stick straight out from the upright, so initially it's at 0. I'm more interested in the deflection which shows negative camber when it's lifted up.

It make sense in my head, but I figure there has to be a reason that all spindles are designed otherwise.

As far as balljoints go, I'm not using the original ones from the ATV so I'm not worried about that. and I'm making my own control arms.

captainamerica- I've seen those, but $600 a wheel is a third of my budget! so I can't do that.

Jim, is this what yours looks like?
www.racingaspirations.com/suspensiongeometry.php?tcx=14&tcy=125&thx=352&thy=96&bcx=10&bcy=275&bhx=308&bhy=271&scl=1&uom=mm if not copy and paste the link shown just below the dimensions.

If so i only get .3 neg. camber. You can expect to get 3 deg. of chassis roll in hard cornering.
Fred V

[fredvv44]

Mar 17, 2013 11:31:48 GMT -5 Liteway said:

This has the atv frontend with the steering arms facing rearward. As you can see its lighter and more compact than most reverse trikes.

cool. Is that a store bought or did you build it?
Fred V

[Liteway]

Thanks Fred. Homemade.

[fredvv44]

Mar 13, 2013 19:23:36 GMT -5 hydrojim said:

fredv-

I'm using this: www.racingaspirations.com/suspension-geometry-calculator

But I've used a more advanced one and got the same results

Here are my inputs:
upper wishbone length: 340mm
lower wishbone length: 300mm
distance between hub: 200mm
distance between chassis: 153mm

The initial camber says: 11 but the spindle doesn't stick straight out from the upright, so initially it's at 0. I'm more interested in the deflection which shows negative camber when it's lifted up.

It make sense in my head, but I figure there has to be a reason that all spindles are designed otherwise.

As far as balljoints go, I'm not using the original ones from the ATV so I'm not worried about that. and I'm making my own control arms.

captainamerica- I've seen those, but $600 a wheel is a third of my budget! so I can't do that.

I forgot to mention another issue: the king pin angle. The king pin or line drawn through the ball joints should point to the ground inside the tire contact patch. yours will point WAY towards the middle of the car. What will happen is that when one tire hits a rut it will jerk the steering wheel right put of your hands. see:
img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/flatlander757/Misc/scrubradius.gif

Imagine this upside down.
Fred V

[hydrojim]

My design will result in a scrub radius of 2.3 inches.
the ATV spindles are so small and the offset of my wheels so great that it compensates for the incorrect king pin inclination angle.

From what I'm reading, a positive scrub radius is actually desirable up to a point for parking and low speed maneuvers.

Here is a link to my proposed set-up:

default values