Spartan Trike Project

[endeavor]

I just read through this entire project - Great job! From a critical view I don't see anything worth criticising. I was curious about the T-bar but you explained this nicely and it's a good plan. Workmanship is first class from what I see and well planned. I am very impressed, keep up the great work.

[noahkatz]

captain,

cool design for the adjustable sway bar

I already forget where, but recently I saw an upright based an rectangular steel tubing.

Very efficient structurally, so seems like it could be cheap, light, and durable.

On the winch for reverse, what do you mean by "feel"?

You drove one and it didn't feel good in operation, or unsatisfying aesthetically?

[captainamerica]

May 2016

Work has been quite busy and I am still lacking a lathe to get a lot of simple but critical parts made for the engine and swing arm mounts. I cut all the tubes for the A-arms last week just need to get the weld fixture finished now. Been working on modeling other pieces of the 2007 bike that have changed like the gas tank mount and the rectifier, there is never a lack of things to be done, besides that I have been working on a formula car rear end that can be swapped into the trike for track days or autocross, show below. The idea is to have all the mounts welded into the chassis and when you want to swap over you just remove the swing arm and attach the chain drive differential (supplied by Taylor Race Engineering, using off the shelf honda drive line components). Look for this add on to be in the 3k cost range and it will probably lead to new front unprights that are steel and use the honda spindles so that there is parity between the front and the rear for simplicity.



Noah,

Mostly I dislike the way that style reverse looks, it just doesn't give off the idea that it was well thought out. That is the same that goes for the tube style upright/spindles, I am sure they work but they aren't very good to look at, which is part of the package in my opinion, whether this is my flaw or what makes my designs better is in the hands of those who want what I make.

Andrew

[noahkatz]

Actually I almost added that the only negative of the steel tube upright is the looks.

I agree it is important; a machined aluminum upright is a thing of beauty.

I want to go with belt or shaft drive, but for reverse with chain drive you could replace the bulky rubber roller with a small sprocket to engage the chain.

[captainamerica]

June 2016

Moving forward at a trudge, got all the pieces for the bell cranks back from the laser cutter so I had my friend TIG weld them together for me and we pushed all the bearings in to make sure everything was machined correctly. The gauge cluster also showed up, it needs some work for both the opening for the gauges themselves as well as some grinding to make sure it sits flush with the strut mount tubing. Hopefully the swing arm mounts will be done by the end of the month along with the rear shock mount and I can move forward with getting the rear suspension together. I also now have all the pieces for the front A-arms just need to get the jig put together to weld. Working all day and then hitting the gym and then coming home to do more work is not very appealing, but that's why we have goals I suppose.

[captainamerica]

July 15th

Got rear ended this morning on the way to meet some local EAA members for breakfast. Pretty much ruined my morning.

I was just pulling away from a light, hadn't even fully released the clutch when an Altima hit me, I thought I had broken the chain or stalled it really hard until I realized what actually happened. Then the thing wouldn't restart. Funny thing, to me at least, is that it screwed up the front of his car but the trike escaped relatively unscathed. His 5mph bumper hit the tire and flat spotted the rim, causing the rear to go flat and then rode up over tire and smashed the license plate holder. As the car came off, I think, it pulled the wheel back on the right side of the swing arm, the chain held the left side in place so the wheel axle was at an angle inside the swing arm. That bit was fixed with a quick screw driver pry bar action but I was worried the rotor might have bent. The Altima lost its front bumper, smashed the radiator and arched the front cross member.

Interestingly the local police rolled up as I was trying to get out of the road and gave us a hand getting out of the way and getting an accident report made, not sure where that goes if anywhere. I told the kid I would be in touch with the cost of repair and would let him determine if he wanted to pay in cash or go to his insurance, need to talk to my insurance and see what they have to say about that. First ever vehicle to vehicle accident I have been in where I was one of the drivers so this is new to me.

I ended up driving about 10 miles home on the flat tire, really weird feeling to drive that way, it felt like the rear wanted to walk in the straights with any little bump. Got it home and immediately took it apart to see what all was wrong. Nothing besides the rim and the license plate holder seem to be damaged so that is a positive. Rotor was flat, caliper looked fine, the axle rolled straight.

I had just done some work on the front end, removing the bump stops, cutting the steering tie rods down so I can and did add camber. The addition of camber was very interesting, the turn in was much better and unlike in the past where the steering response was a bit sluggish it's not very quick possibly too quick cause it makes the car jump even more to the side when one tire hits a bump. With the rear wheel change I am going to get new rubber all around, currently planning to go with toyo R888 tires so we will see how much of a difference that makes. It's fun to tinker with the vehicle and be able to feel how much little changes can make.

In other less interesting news I got the new chassis swing arm mounts tacked up in the fixture and the steering column mounts are also done and read to be put in. More to come on that soon.





Andrew

[Liteway]

May 10, 2016 14:46:38 GMT -5 captainamerica said:

I have my own suspension layout, kingpin, castor, camber which pretty much stops me from using off the shelf parts, and I like designing this stuff. But I do want to build something that is cheap and reliable, weight might take a hit but I think people will accept that for difference in price. Dennis Palatov, dpcars.net makes and sells his own uprights that he uses on his cars, $600 a piece or more which is reasonable.

The upper ball joint is really a spherical joint, the lower mount is a ball joint. The spherical bearing is just pressed into the upper attachment, since the push rods go to the lower A-arms there is very little shear loading on that joint which allows me to do that. Its typical of a Formula car suspension setup.



This weighed in at 11lbs, so that is my goal for a welded steel upright with similar attachments.

Sorry to hear of your misfortune with an inattentive driver, but very glad you were unscathed. Much easier repairing metal than flesh, and so less painful.

I was concerned about the weight of the cast iron Spider uprights I ordered, especially after hefting them, my point of reference being the ATV units I have now, but those were cast alm. and under built for the purpose and loads I was putting on them.(8mm lugs!)

Not wanting to bother with separating the hubs with the uprights, and with the calipers and pads attached, the Spyder unit weighed in at about 10 lbs, 13 with the rotor, so I guess that is not so bad at all. Wonder what the equivalent Mustang ll stuff would weigh?

I do get your point about all the compromises inherent in trying to use off the shelf front end components on a vehicle they were not designed for.
Its going to take me a while to determine if I can make this work the way I want it, so I kinda stuck my neck out. Particularly worrisome is that the steering arms are cast as part of the upright so I am stuck with their height and angle and so some kind of workarounds are inevitable. At least on the ATV uprights the steering arms were separate and could be reangled, shortened, etc. And strangely, there is almost no kingpin inclination. We'll see.

If I were to the have the option, as you do, I might also try to make my own. As I think you were saying a lot of the satisfaction in messing around with these trikes is not just in their use, but the challenge of seeing how far your own ingenuity can take you in solving all the problems and to make the vehicle as capable as possible. There is no end to it and that is a good thing.
Anxious to see what you come up with.

[jim99]

Glad to hear you are OK. It's a worry for those of us that drive motorcycles, bikes and trikes that the larger vehicles on the road will tend to “win” in a physical contest. After hearing you are OK, it’s nice to hear that the damage appears to be minor.
Be safe!
Jim

[nedkelly]

Hey Andrew I haven't been here for a while, sorry to here you and car made contact from all I have read you survived the impact and are well, that's all that matters. What or which stage are you up to in your build, I see 2rike is well on his way with a good looking machine, you also look to be well ahead with your machine.

[captainamerica]

August '16

Slowly pushing forwards, the upper A-arm fixture has been built. The fixture is made in such a way that I can disassemble the chassis mounts side and actually use it as a jig to center punch and drill the holes in the chassis so they are an exact match, pictures will explain that a little better. Big thanks to some machining help from one of our admins here who offered his time and talent on the bearing carriers and some other smaller parts, the uprights are now welded together and I am getting very close to being ready to put the whole outer together. The steering rack purchase is looming in the near future, its a chunk of change that needs to be planned for. Also coming soon will be the disassembly of the current fuel tank and the mounting of the engine.

Among other things the first trike has been fully repaired and is back with new tires, better and faster. I can definitely tell the grip level of the tires is a lot higher, you have to corner differently because the thing will want to pull you into a tighter radius then you want. The insurance company of the fellow who hit me paid out reasonably and that has allowed me to fix everything with some money left over. Currently I have the second trike donor bike rear wheel on the trike, which is a neon green, and the response and my personal feel about it has been very positive, so I am planning on powder coating the wheels a neon orange/red and possibly adding some color to the chassis itself to match. The second trike will have the neon green wheels.

[noahkatz]

> The insurance company of the fellow who hit me paid out reasonably

That raises some interesting questions:

1) How does the insurance company determine replacement cost for a hand-built vehicle?

2) How are claims handled - is it like a regular vehicle where you get 3rd party repair estimates?

[captainamerica]

"> The insurance company of the fellow who hit me paid out reasonably

That raises some interesting questions:

1) How does the insurance company determine replacement cost for a hand-built vehicle?

2) How are claims handled - is it like a regular vehicle where you get 3rd party repair estimates?"

Noah,

The insurance adjuster just came out, took pictures, we discussed all the problems that I had with the trike (real and potential) and then I threw a number his way about what I was looking for. To my knowledge he had no leg to stand on about how to actually assess the damage and time it took to fix said damage, but their was almost undoubtedly a number in his head that he wanted to pay out and anything less would be acceptable. I imagine that number was in the 3-5k range, if I had been unreasonable he could have gone to the state's listed tax value and basically totaled the vehicle out (just my guess here).

As far as claims go, I made a claim to the company, they looked over the police accident report, verified their driver had a valid policy and was clearly at fault and then sent out the adjuster. If the adjuster and myself had not come to an agreement on payment then we probably would have gone somewhere and had them look at it. Once we agreed, I had a check with a bill of repairs (mostly made up besides replacement part costs that I had listed to him) in hand within three days. I don't know if there are regulations on how that system is supposed to work but I imagine as long both sides agree on the payment their shouldn't be any issue down the road.

[noahkatz]

Interesting, thanks.

> he could have gone to the state's listed tax value

There's a listed value for custom trikes?

Actually, doesn't the insurance company need to determine a replacement value as part of quoting coverage?

[captainamerica]

In the state of NC you are required to get two appraisals of the custom built vehicle you are registering for tax purposes. Unlike places such as California, there is vehicle property tax here that you pay yearly and is automatically depreciated, so they have to have a stated value to mark against, real or not. I would imagine the only reason an insurance company would care about the value of the vehicle is if you were getting full coverage, which for my trike was quoted at about 4k a year, so I took a pass on that.

[noahkatz]

Ah, so you didn't get collision/theft coverage.

If you don't mind my asking, what did your trike get appraised at?

[captainamerica]

The trike appraisal was more of me going to the shop and showing them basically what I had spent on the bits and pieces and them handing me a letter saying they agreed. I wrote it up for 10k in value because you have to pay property tax at registration in this state that is directly related to that number and the title bond is based on that value so even at 10k those two added up to be $650. Real value is probably higher, you know with my untold emotional investment...probably a 1/4 mil

[noahkatz]

And you still haven't gotten to the biggie - labor hours.

[captainamerica]

This wasn't an actual appraisal and neither was the one done by the insurance company, I needed a piece of paper to make the DMV happy and so I tallied up what the major components cost and had two people who have in fact looked at the vehicle before and our current valid dealers of trikes sign off that they agreed to the number. While not actually correct, it did represent the value of replacing the major components. The insurance adjusted just made up the numbers about labor time and repairs to match what I had asked for, and since that whole transaction is private it can be done that way and I am sure it usually is anyway even with real body shops.

[captainamerica]

October 2016

Still waiting on a few crucial pieces from the laser cutter and a ream to open up the engine mount tubes that tightened up during welding. Also did some setup checks with my friend sitting in the car, looking at helmet clearance, knee clearance, and pedal positions. This seat is still going to be built into the chassis but the cushions are going to be a lot thicker which should be nice.

[captainamerica]

December 2016-January 2017

Work all but stopped through early January as I was looking for and subsequently purchasing a new house here in North Carolina. I was tired of paying rent my new mortgage is actually cheaper then the rent was, however the gains from the investments the down payments were in probably more then offsets the difference. Sadly the new house came with a really small garage (17x20) which basically amounts to a single car garage. The first order of business was to epoxy the floor, I went with a 2.5 car garage kit from rustoleum because Lowe's was out of the valspar version I had used in California. The finish ended up looking really good, although I did park the trike on it about 3 days later before we had a warm day and the tires left some marks. I have now consolidated all my tools from the old rented shop into this tiny space which doesn't give me a lot of working room, especially with the lady deciding she wanted to start making furniture so now there is constantly saw dust floating around and covering everything. My plan is to build a 1200sqft shop on the other side of the property but I am currently waiting on the city to get back to be about an annexation as one of the two plots I bought is in the county and not the city.

Not to be completely out of whack with work and getting things done I did a pedal position adjustment, trying to maximize foot room and give the clutch more play throughout the throw. This ended up giving me a lot of headache and the further I went the deeper the hole got dug. The clutch master cylinder actuation rod makes an upward angle to the pedal, its been this way since I built it and its a negative thing as is increases the amount of throw per angle of motion. So I opted to make it a downward angle so that the pedal attachment is closer to the center of rotation. Everything seemed to work great after I finished, but unbeknownst to me the master cylinder piston had wore into the bore in such a way that when I flipped the actuation angle it caused the piston to bind without fully releasing. This caused the clutch to not close and for me to get a very strange noise while driving every time I got on the throttle, it also hindered acceleration quite a lot as you can imagine. This was sorted out over a night or two last week, I then put everything back together and could not get the clutch to release, tested by putting the trike in first with the clutch in and trying to roll it. I kept adding pedal throw back in, that I had removed for foot room, to obtain more master cylinder actuation distance but nothing helped. So I have now dropped the motor and hooked up the clutch slave to the engine outside of the chassis so I can actually watch it actuate which it seems to do just fine. I am now currently confused and ready to just put the thing back together and see if I missed something, I am also going to fix a bunch of small problems that I have while the engine is out for the first time in two and half years. More pictures to come, also new wheels, something a little brighter and more visible.



The new house and the view from the front door after it snowed 4 inches.