Spartan Trike Project

[Liteway]

Just read one of Alan's old posts about his experiences when he owned your trike. Claims it was quite a good track handler; that he cornered it on 2 wheels at angles up to 45degress and scraped the side pods. Sounds like an exaggeration, but you can check the side pod's for scratch marks Ned. Maybe lifting the inside front wheel a ft in the air is not so dangerous after all. Scared me when mine did it prior to anti-sway bar installation. No lifting now even when driven very hard. I can feel that inside wheel skitter a bit through suddenly very light steering near the limit, but no visible lifting. The back slides before the front lifts, but it also sticks better when roll control doesn't allow it to roll over on its edge.

Hope captain responds to your question, I would be interested to hear his experiences.
Likewise, you too Jim, Joker, Tripod1 if you see this.

[nedkelly]

Hey thanks Triplethreat

This weekend I am going to investigate the full travel of the front suspension just to check that it is not bottoming out.

I put new tyres all round two nights prior to the wheel lift experience, Saturday I tested them out with the fronts at 20psi and the rear at 35psi, I was happy with the front tyres until they got hot and the handling did not feel as good as when they were cold the rear was fine. 

So for the run on Sunday I dropped the front to 15 psi which was much much better when they got some heat into them.

As far as grip is concerned the rear has not slipped since new tyres fitted, prior to new tyres the rear would slide out all the time which was fun but lost a lot of speed due to this.

I am thinking with new rear tyre which does not slip and new fronts which grip unbelievable that the front suspension is now being forced to it limits and the rear wheel forces the same side as the direction of the corner to lift off.

By the way front tyres are 205/50/16 and rear 205/50/17  Michelin SP3 car tyres, rear soon to be a road legal semi slick Yokohama.

Your comment of rollover concerns me but in the same breath it felt very stable and did not loose traction front or rear when the wheel lifts, but better to be on the side of caution for now.

Ned

PS 1 side pod is scraped not sure about 45 degrees, Alan told me the same but not 45 degrees

[captainamerica]

This made me laugh a bit, I have cornered pretty hard, probably in the 40-50 mph range (60-80 kph) and never even felt a hint of the inside wheel lifting. This sounds like a James Bond style stunt maneuver. I may have to go find a parking lot to try this in now though, I run pretty stiff suspension and a very stiff roll bar. When I first built the thing I could get 5 degrees of body roll just by pushing hard back and forth on the top of the roll hoop, now I can put my full body weight into that and barely feel the trike give. I don't know about other people but my CG is in the 17" (43 cm) range, from the ground. I run 205/40R17 on all 3 corners

I have actually been doing a lot of work lately just nothing really to show for it yet, I am replacing the head lights with much brighter LED lights from MightyLED, getting an LED tail light and a secondary brake light that will go on the cross bar near the top of the roll hoop. Also switching to LED rear turn blinkers, mostly I am just trying to become more visible in the day and the night. Also I am in the final stages of finishing a new chassis fab table (4'x8') that I am going to use to make another trike and possible more after that.

-Andrew

[Liteway]

I can appreciate that in matters that can kill and cripple you would seek an expert's advice, but an expert in four wheel suspension is not automatically one with tikes. It ain't rocket science Ned. If you don't have an anti-roll bar, get one. If you do, get a bigger one and/or stiffer front springs. Don't know why Alan would choose to compare to a Can Am. High CG, narrow track, don't corner well, can't keep up with a decent bike and rider. As sold in the US they have electronic nannies that severely limit corner speed. May catch flack but IMO they are for old men who don't care to go fast and have grown weary of holding up their Gold Wings and Harleys, not that there is anything wrong with that.

[captainamerica]

March '15

I haven't said much on here lately but I have been working, just not getting as far as I wanted. Been building a new fab table to create all future trikes and other projects on, its just under 4'x8' and a 4x4 grid pattern of 1/2" holes with knocked in 3/8-16 threaded inserts. The going has been slow but the finished product looks very nice, just a few more holes to drill and it will be all done. The legs are 3"x3" square tube 3' long plus the length of the pads makes the table about 40" tall which works just fine for me. I also started cutting tubes for the next chassis and I am buying a tube bender this week with a couple of dies as the new chassis has a lot for more bends (anything is more then one right?)






In other new I finally upgraded my crappy lights after enough complaints from others and myself. New LED head lights from Mighty LED for about $60 a piece and then replacement LED rear turn blinkers and brake light. It was about $100 in total for all the bits and pieces. Drove into Charlotte yesterday to go to a friends BBQ and took the trike, drove back in the night and had no issue with the new lights, the head lights are so much brighter.

[mtntech]

I would recommend JD2 dies.

[skifffz1to3]

What tires are you running? Are all three the same size? 

Looks great by the way...love to see it in person.

[skifffz1to3]

Another question...moving the radiator down, did you experience any cooling issues?

[captainamerica]

I am running 205/50R17 on all three corners. The radiator has been in the same place really as it was in the bike, but it is thicker and wider and has a huge fan on the front. As far as cooling goes, as long as everything is hooked up properly (ie the fan isn't wired backwards pulling air away from the rad) I have had no issues, it runs about 225F at the high and then 210F on the low on a hot day. On a cold day I actually have trouble getting it up to temp, usually reaches around 195F.

The JD2 bender is on order with three dies, I bought the model 32 heavy duty that can be updated with hydraulics later if I want. I bought the 1" Diameter 3.0" Rad, 1.25" Diameter 3.5" Rad, and the 1.5" Diameter 4.5" Rad dies. The total came to just shy of a 1k for the lot of it, which seems reasonable and they can all do 180 degree bends which I was definitely looking for after my first woodward fab bender only did 120 degrees and made the one bend I did do in the roll hoop very difficult. I'll update with my review of that in a few weeks when it shows up.

I don't know if anyone else has encountered this but yesterday I ended up driving about 2 hours in the trike after work and over tightening the belt apparently which then crushed my chest a bit and threw my back out of wack. So I tightened the belts when I got in, after a bit of driving they had felt loose so I tightened them down again. I think the way I have to sit in the thing compiled with how my shoulders are a bit forward to grab the wheel and my head tilts down to look straight ahead caused an overall compression on the front of my body. My lungs/chest seem alright today but I ended up at the chiropractor for 2 hours getting my back sorted out which looks to be some sort of strained muscle. I think I'm going to take a few days off of driving the thing and make sure I get sorted out health wise.

-Andrew

[mtntech]

Model 32 is a good choice. Nice dies and I also buy the 180s. That bender will bend 1.5" solid. I've done hundreds of bends with those dies.

[nedkelly]

Feb 24, 2015 10:12:22 GMT -5 captainamerica said:

This made me laugh a bit, I have cornered pretty hard, probably in the 40-50 mph range (60-80 kph) and never even felt a hint of the inside wheel lifting. This sounds like a James Bond style stunt maneuver. I may have to go find a parking lot to try this in now though, I run pretty stiff suspension and a very stiff roll bar. When I first built the thing I could get 5 degrees of body roll just by pushing hard back and forth on the top of the roll hoop, now I can put my full body weight into that and barely feel the trike give. I don't know about other people but my CG is in the 17" (43 cm) range, from the ground. I run 205/40R17 on all 3 corners

I have actually been doing a lot of work lately just nothing really to show for it yet, I am replacing the head lights with much brighter LED lights from MightyLED, getting an LED tail light and a secondary brake light that will go on the cross bar near the top of the roll hoop. Also switching to LED rear turn blinkers, mostly I am just trying to become more visible in the day and the night. Also I am in the final stages of finishing a new chassis fab table (4'x8') that I am going to use to make another trike and possible more after that.

-AndrewUpdate on James bond, last weekend I did the Reefton spur again on my own we had a long weekend 3 days 1st day only inner cornering wheel lifting when going pretty hard, 2nd day same, 3rd day early morning so I had the road all to myself, in my head this was my chance to see how hard I could push this machine, very early into the ride maybe 5 corners into it doing a fast l/h corner and hitting the brakes she lifted onto 2 wheels r/h/f and rear to approximately 45 degrees possible more, no steering heading straight into the mountain embankment on the wrong side of the road I released the brakes, almost sprained both wrists trying to opposite lock the steering the l/h/f floated gently back to earth after the r/h/s body made contact with the road needless to say the remainder of the ride was a fair bit slower. So to all you trike people please be careful.

[DaveJ98092]

Ned, On a 2 wheel bike what you did was a highside slide out but with three wheels it kept you upright. A good anti-sway (anti-rollbar) may keep it flatter at the same speed or higher in the same corner. A steering stabilizer shock may have softened the jerk to opposite lock somewhat too. Keep us informed.

[Liteway]

Andrew, how were you able to resolve the problem with the anti-roll bar twisting beyond the recovery point?

[nedkelly]

Hello thanks for the response.

I honestly don't think there is a fix for this and don't think a heavier sway bar would resolve the issue.

After many hours thinking about this issue and many hours on the net, I believe it is nothing more than Physics taking over when the weight transfers in hard braked corners with only one person on board being it is a 2 seater so off centre weight with only a driver and will 'only' and 'always' roll to the drivers side of the trike and will never roll to the passengers side.

The sway bar is 22mm in diameter from a car that weighs at least twice as much as the trike, the only help I can input to the trike is to adjust the front suspension every time it has only one on board.

If you look at the Morgan 3 wheeler the engine is not only placed at the front of the thing for good looks it also helps with the issue I have with my 2 seater.

Regards Ned

Time for a new design!

 

[captainamerica]

Ned,

I really want to see on board video of this occuring if you have it. I have cornered relatively hard and never been close (that I know of) to really lifting a wheel, maybe I need to try harder , flashes of my dead body plowed into a tree usually keeps me off the limit.

Triplethreat,
As far as the sway bar goes I finally got the verticals laser cut and did a reasonable job welding, it is very stiff but I have had no problem with breakage since then, probably 800 miles on it since then. currently rolling through 3k miles since I first got it registered last April. I am still fighting to get a title, found out last week that DMV didn't like one of my appraisals so I had to go get it redone. Hopefully the second time through this operation will be much more seamless.

-Andrew

[nedkelly]

Hey Andrew

Sorry no video to show, and I have certainly slowed down since, so I don't think I will risk it again just to have on video.

I am sure it's due to it's a 2 seater and all weight is on the D/S none on passenger side when riding alone, when braking in corner, weight transfers and up she goes.

You on the other hand are seated in the middle of your machine which is the only explanation as to why you are not lifting a wheel and also your track or width of the front wheels is greater than what I have.

When I say braking hard, I mean you are or have made the judgement to late that you have gone into the corner to hot/fast and rapidly and firmly apply the brakes, which is driver error or over confidant prior to the corner.

Having said that I bought this thing to go as fast as I can and push the limits, but as you say (flashes of my dead body plowed into a tree) has slowed me down somewhat.

I am planning a new frame which will have wider track at front to try and help with this, I am also toying with building a 2 seater side by side trike that has the engine over/near the front suspension similar to Slingshot and seat near rear suspension, only for track riding.

As I have told you the laws in Aus won't allow a home made anything on the road without major dollars in engineering.

Ned

[captainamerica]

May '15

Finally got my title sorted out and it arrived last week. Its nice to have that out of the way.


For those interested the process if goes as follows for North Carolina (The MVR-55A Form is very helpful here):

1) Finish your vehicle to a street legal condition, this will be based on your vehicle code for the state, if your unsure the inspectors office is helpful. (In Cali I needed fenders, here I do not)

2) Call you local DMV inspectors office and setup an appointment to have them see the vehicle, they come to you which is really nice. My guy met me at lunch 3 times so I didn't have to miss work.

3) Inspector notes all relevant info with him, this will include donor bike title numbers and engine block numbers for motorcycle engines.

4) Inspector takes all that info runs it with DMV headquarters and about a week later will meet with you again, assuming things went well, to give you his inspectors report and two VIN stickers. One goes on the dash and the other goes somewhere hidden (mine is near the ECU in the tail)

www.ncdot.gov/dmv/forms/default.html (All required forms)

5) Once you have that report you need to do or fill out the following:

A) MVR-1 Title Application Form (not the MVR-1A)
B) MVR-92H Affidavit of facts to accompany indemnity bond, needs to be notarized (a lot of these were left N/A on mine as it is written for a purchased chassis kit car)
C) MVR-55 (not MVR-55A) Affidavit for custom/replica built vehicle, needs to be notarized (This is a hand written statement of the process used to build the vehicle, I had this finished when the inspector wrote his report which I found to be helpful as he took a copy for his notes)
D) Trailer your vehicle to a motorcycle inspection station and get an inspection now that you have a VIN
E) Obtain two appraisals from registered motorcycle dealerships, trike dealerships would be best but not always possible, with the new Polaris and CAN-AM out there these are becoming much easier to find. (these appraisals need to be on company letter head and signed preferably with a note saying that this is an appraisal, I had one of mine kicked back because it looked to much like a receipt for purchased parts)
F) MVR-92D - Get a title bond from an insurance company for one and a half times the value of the highest appraisal, this requires that they fill out this form, signatures and notarized all around.

6) Take all these documents from step five as well as the inspectors report down to the DMV, the inspector has started the process with DMV HQ and there will be a file there based on your VIN number. DMV will take all these documents, with some coaxing, unless you get someone really helpful like I did you will end up doing a lot of explaining. At the end of the process you should leave with plate, tag, and registration, and hopefully if you have filled out all your forms correct in a month or two you will get a title and your off and running. (I paid $500 in tax and fees based on my accessed value, its a double tax in my opinion as I already paid tax on all the parts when I purchased them, but that is just my opinion...)

Also if there is anything in the title application or other non-notarized documents that you are unsure of, such as make and model, leave them blank until you are actually at DMV and have them tell you what they want you to write in those places.

Hopefully this is helpful.

In other news, the new pipe bender from JD2 is pretty awesome, relatively easy to use as well. The bender was about $1000 for the model 32 bender and 3 dies (1", 1.25" 1.5") all of the smallest bend radius. My only complaint with the bender is its instructions for putting it together are garbage and sometimes incorrect, like they made them years ago for the first version and just never bothered to update. It also came with a bunch of extra washers and other parts that have no use as far as I can tell and have no reference in either the construction or use sections. I tried calling the company but could never get a hold of anyone. So I just went by trial and error, still have a bunch of "spare" parts but the bends look really nice. I have most of the bars for the front of the next chassis cut and bent, they still need to be coped but I am currently working on my fixtures as the top priority. I would like to have a chassis to sit in by the end of June if I can get motivated.

Andrew

[rapt]

Hey,Thanks Andrew

You just made a great set of instructions for getting things done for the state. I know they are different; I'd like to hear the same for Virginia, since that is where I live.

I have lots of parts from different vendors, most of which I have receipts for. But the original bikes, none of them have titles on file, especially the one I am using as a base (engine & rear drive). I am close to certain that, in the end, I may not need a title from the original, because the machine is a complex combination of parts. I could go with the assumption that I am right, but we all know that is not the best way to proceed. Any advice is welcome.

[captainamerica]

Rapt,

The title will help, but the reality is they will just take the numbers off the motor case and run them against known stolen numbers. Having receipts will be helpful at the appraisal stage if its similar to NC. Just doing a quick check into this, and I highly recommend calling your state title office and getting their opinion, I see that you need to fill out a VIN application (VSA-22) under the specially constructed vehicle box which they want any original title, receipts for parts (I expect that this should include receipts for all metal used in the chassis), notarized construction document (similar to the MVR-55 from NC, you may want to use it as a base document if you can't find something from Virginia), a photo, and some money. Then once you have your VIN you need to fill out the title application (VSA-17A).

This is a pretty good go to for the process in your state it looks like, again I highly suggest just giving your states title office a call and going over with them what you plan to do and let them tell you what they need.
www.dmv.virginia.gov/vehicles/#reconstructed.html

Andrew

[captainamerica]

June '15

Finally got going on things with the help of some friends. The table is all done, and has been for awhile, but the laser cut chassis fixtures were finished last week. I welded them together, somewhat badly on the L shaped ones, you might say they are more of a V, weld pull...real life problems. Also because its a cool picture, I threw in a picture of all the NASCAR haulers that I took at the Sonoma Cup race last Sunday. I have slowly been working on the pieces for all this it just came together real quickly yesterday. Still need to make the fixtures to support the roll hoops and the front bulkhead and everything behind the firewall. Lots to do.




BTW, Does this picture make me look fat...?

Andrew